I recently engaged in two conversations on facebook. One on a friends post, one on mine. I wanted to document them here for future reference. This is the transcript of both in full... it might be a bit tricky to read, but I tried to lay it out and clean it up as best I could. I think both of these clearly showcase the bias's Christians often assume as fact. It was my hope that through these conversations a doubting believer would get a chance I never had, and see some rationality. I wasn't so much trying to convince these people, as I was trying to convince those who were reading but not commenting.
Slavery
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Nathan Gill
?"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~Patrick Henry
Sunday at 8:15pm
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3 people like this.
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Calvin Goble
Hmm... That's odd, God doesn't seem to forbid it... he seems to encourage slavery throughout the bible. Patrick probably didn't read the bible much? Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:20-21, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5
Sunday at 8:38pm
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Mary Hawley Dirig
Way out of context, Calvin. The whole point of Nathan's quote was that he didn't want to be slave to the government. But to address your references, at those points in history it was the way of life to own slaves. God simply gave rules for the fair treatment of said workers. Do any of us have a choice whether or not to work? We're all slaves to something. That's all I'm going to say on the subject.
Sunday at 9:04pm
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Calvin Goble
First you say its out of context and then you tell me everyone is a slave to something anyway....???
I can do whatever I like within the law, whenever I want without someone threatening to kill me... its called freedom. I am not a slave to a...nything. If I wanted to, I could move to the mountains and kill animals for food, I don't have to work for anyone but myself, and in fact I am self employed.
It is immoral to enslave people. But God seems to think it's ok.... oh, unless you are a chosen one: "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Leviticus 25:44-46
Why is it ok to enslave other people, but not Israelites? Why does God never say, 'hey, forcing people to work for you is bad' when it is so obviously immoral?
Sunday at 9:21pm
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Nathan Gill
Calvin, your strong stance against slavery is commendable, but I find it very ironic that you would single out a quote by an evangelical Christian, and particularly Patrick Henry, as the place to claim Christianity promotes slavery. I'm sur...e we can agree with the facts: slavery has always existed in every culture, whether African, Oriental, European or American. How interesting, then, after thousands of years of existence that the ONLY countries in which it was opposed, and, in fact, ended, were Christian ones? Are you familiar with William Wilberforce, the Christian evangelical who almost singlehandedly ended the slave trade throughout the British Empire? Are you familiar with Horace Mann, Henry Ward Beecher and William Lloyd Garrison? These were the three leading abolitionists in the United States, and all were active members of Christian denominations.
Slavery is never specifically condemned in the Bible, though it is never encouraged. Let's look at what slavery actually is, though. There's a lot of bogeyism associated with it. The Princeton dictionary gives this definition: "the state of being under the control of another person." That's all that slavery is. What do you consider imprisonment? That's a punishment where you are under someone else's control, except you are left in a cell to rot rather than working. What about paying taxes to the state? You have no choice about being born into that obligation. Where do you draw the line? Slavery is not inherently wrong as a punishment for crime, as long as it is regulated by laws, as Old Testament slavery was, and as forced "community service" is today. Biblical-era debtors were enslaved, captives taken in war were enslaved rather than executed, some people CHOSE to remain slaves, as evidenced by Deuteronomy 15:12-18 and other Old Testament provisions for slaves who didn't wish to be freed. The provisions of food and shelter slavery provided when the master was merciful were often preferable to an uncertain, poverty-stricken life. Slaves were to be treated humanely, and they could gain their freedom (Certainly a better fate than spending life in prison, or being killed): Deuteronomy 15:12–18, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 4:1. Slavery based on race where laws protecting the workers are ignored is what we mostly think of as slavery today, but that's not all it is. Slavery has rarely been based on race, even in the ancient world. You may recall that the instance when it was is the story of the Israelites being freed from racial slavery in Egypt.
In the New Testament, slavery clearly runs contrary to the New Covenant. In a pagan world (which, interestingly was based very much on rationalism. Aristotle, the ultimate empiricist and rationalist, thought slavery was inevitable and beneficial) that was filled with slaves, this was revolutionary: Galatians 3:28 said boldly that, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Think about the context of that society - that was a shocking thing to say! Slave traders are specifically condemned in 1 Timothy 1:10. The whole purpose of the book of Philemon is Paul pleading with Philemon to treat his runaway slave Onesimus with mercy, and to consider freeing him. 1 Corinthians 7:23 shows that Paul considered human slavery a reprehensible thing. If you're looking for a specific injunction to eliminate the institution, you won't find it explicitly. That would have amounted to fomenting slave insurrections and would have resulted in the extermination of Christians by the Roman authorities. They had come through the rebellions of Spartacus and other slaves the century before. You also won't find calls for democratic referendums, written constitutions or bills of rights in the Bible. All of these ideals we take for granted that were secured at our Revolution are in the essence of Christianity, but never specifically stated, for Christ's kingdom is within us. We are to be free from sin. Only then does the rest follow suit.
In the evolutionary world there is no reason to oppose slavery. Natural selection, the "survival of the fittest" and other godless doctrines lead to an inevitable hierarchy and caste system.
Yesterday at 10:58am
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Nathan Gill
Also, if you could please show me where a non-Christian society has ever come close to doing what the Christian societies have, I'd appreciate it. In Biblical times the closest thing you can point to are the ancient Greeks, who were the epitome of empiricism and rational thinking of their day and age. As you know, their brightest minds ended up justifying slavery. Obviously morality's source is not found in rational thought.
Yesterday at 11:11am
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Calvin Goble
Firstly, every point you just made does not detract from the simple fact that enslavement is wrong, and god talks about it like its ok.
The fact that over time the world as a whole, both christian and non christian, eventually decided that slavery is wrong... goes more to proving my point then yours.
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21
How can you tell me honestly that this is moral and right? Is it ok to beat a slave as long as you don't kill them right away? Under what definition of slave is this alright?
No sane intelligent person bases their morality on the natural world. Survival of the fittest is a horrific thing. Does it happen out there in nature, yes. Does this mean we should emulate it? NO. No sane intelligent person blindly grabs facts about the universe and directly applies them to morals. As I have said, my morals come from deep contemplation about the things we learn from science about the world. This includes a concepts like sympathy and considering what it means to be conscious, and realizing that what is best, is that everyone is treated with love and respect.
The fact that I have pointed this out to you on many occasions now, and you still blindly believe that survival of the fittest is my moral code, demonstrates yet again how belief clouds your ability to take in new information.
Understand that I am not suggesting that you are not a moral person, nor do I think Patrick was immoral. I think most sane rational people develop morals that tell them things like 'slavery is wrong', 'its not ok to murder children' and 'rape is never ok'. What I am suggesting is that your god does not hold these morals, or at least he didn't at some point in time. I am also not suggesting that past atheistic cultures (are there even any of those?) did not encourage or endorse slavery. They probably did. What I am saying is that slavery is wrong, and anyone who suggests otherwise is also wrong, whether they agree with me on other points or not.
Yesterday at 1:27pm
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Nathan Gill
Please tell me what it is specifically about slavery that is wrong. You are ignoring several of the points I raised in my previous post.
Second, the apostle Paul and the other authors were inspired by God's Spirit to write the biblical books..., so when he condemns the institution, it is synonymous with God condemning it. I know that you will not accept that, but rejection of it is based upon your presupposition that God does not exist.
How does it do that? Only where Christianity has existed has slavery been condemned or abolished.
That verse you quote (Exodus 21:20-21) is obviously meant to protect slaves. What other cultures of that day and age had similar laws that protected slaves who were often thought to be subhuman? Often there were no laws at all. Is this, then, merciful or cruel?
Well, Calvin, I am genuinely glad to hear that you eschew survival of the fittest and other evolutionary cornerstones as a basis upon which to build a morality (if indeed that can even be done). You obviously have a strong moral sense and convictions, but I don't think you will ever find the stability and justice you obviously and commendably seek except in the Christian God. Your stated source of morals is obscure and oblique. Even if you could be completely right in what you hold to by this method, others who followed the same steps to build their own moralities would come to different conclusions. This would lead to clashes in society and lawlessness because of a lack of one overarching morality. None of us have all the answers, and we are all blinded by prejudice, blindness, the need to justify ourselves, emotion, and fallible intellects. You say you believe this, which is good, but in practice you are anything but consistent. You say it is my lack of understanding, but you cannot possibly claim anything beyond natural selection as a basis for your morality. Be consistent with what you believe.
Regardless of the disagreement we'll maintain on that point, I would be interested to hear why you believe slavery is wrong, your reason for believing that, and how you come to such a conclusion.
Yesterday at 1:49pm
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Calvin Goble
i'll respond tomorrow, super busy at the moment, sorry.
Yesterday at 1:54pm
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Nathan Gill That's fine. Me too.
Yesterday at 1:55pm
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Calvin Goble
Lets start with the definition of slavery: Slavery is any system under which societal roles as 'property' are imposed on humans.
Treating humans like property is wrong because it allows for things like:
Beatings - "When a man strikes his male... or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 (I am not sure how saying its ok to beat them as long as they don't die right away is protecting them)
Imprisonment
Forced Labor (presumably in fear of the beatings)
And often, slavery is linked to racism or just treating anyone who isn't like you as if they are less human - "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Leviticus 25:44-46
I willfully ignored some of your previous points because, "every point you just made does not detract from the simple fact that enslavement is wrong, and god talks about it like its ok." Why does god go on about what you can and cant eat (Deuteronomy 14:3-21) or what material your clothing can be made from (Leviticus 19:19 yes i am aware this is just for the Levities) but he fails to mention that you shouldn't treat people like property? It seems like a major oversight to me. The point here is not who is the least evil slavers of the old testament times. It is purely the contradiction that slavery is wrong, and your loving and just god allows for it.
I don't find any stability or justice in the biblical god, only contradicting, poorly thought out, bronze age laws.
I agree that none of us have all the answers, and that our ability to single handedly observe and understand the world is poor. If that's how it worked, we would likely be in chaos. However those who follow this method of thinking do not keep it to themselves, and they are not ridged rules like your biblical commandments. They are open to discussion, reason, and change. My morals are not perfect... which is why I endeavor to improve them.
The reason I say my morals are based on Science is because it has continuously proven itself to be the best method for understanding the world around us. Science is capable of admitting when it got something wrong, reanalyzing the data and seeking better conclusions that fit the evidence.
It is the nature of science that shows me the benefits of peaceful, creative, collaboration between humans. Alone I can not find the truth, but many working together can get closer to it. Science works by creating tests that others can replicate and verify. Without a large group practicing science, it would be subject to my imperfections and bias and hardly worth doing. It is science that leads me to see that the other humans around me are thinking, feeling, beings like myself. And it is my ability through deep, contemplative, abstract thought that I am able to 'put myself in their shoes'. Through these things I can (selfishly) imagine the kind of world I wish to live in. One where love and respect for everyone is the norm.
It is from these stepping stones that I can easily come to the conclusion that slavery is wrong.
about an hour ago
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Nathan Gill
You're good at articulating what is wrong or right with something, but not why it's right or wrong. Why don't you believe that humans can be property? After all, you have a pet cat. That pet is your property, and as a fellow species of animal I would say there's no difference between that lifeform being your property and having another human being as your property. What about farm animals?
55 minutes ago
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Calvin Goble
haha, I am more Hobbes property then he is mine. He does what he wants, and I let him outside when he wants... if he didn't want to come back, I would miss him, but that's his call. No slavery going on there. (also I don't force him into la...bor... like that would work)
I thought I said why I think its wrong, I am sorry you didn't follow. Here is the concise simple version: Humans working together is good -> If I was forced to work and treated like property I would hate it -> abstract thoughts tell me other people would also hate it -> slavery is bad and hurts, not doing slavery is much better for everyone.
47 minutes ago
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Calvin Goble
Yeah, farm animals are more complicated... there's something that keeps me up at night.
46 minutes ago
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Nathan Gill
You mock it, but it's a logical question given what you're saying. Do you think keeping livestock is immoral?
Did you buy your cat? Isn't that an immoral concept?
Concerning your last point, you seem to be admitting that this is all based on ...your (one person's -not exactly a good sample) feelings but I'll let that slide. How do you explain the many people through history people who have voluntarily enslaved themselves?
Your other defense is a utilitarian one. But what if it results in greater productivity? After all, why is hurting someone inherently wrong?
41 minutes ago
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Nathan Gill
What all these questions are tending towards is establishing that there is obviously a vast difference between human beings and animals, but you cannot possibly provide it. Therefore, you'll be hard pressed to prove slavery is wrong (speaking of which, doesn't "proving" involve absolute truth?).
39 minutes ago
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Calvin Goble
I am not mocking it... it honestly keeps me up at night thinking about stuff like that.
No, I did not buy Hobbes, there was no one to take care of him, his mother died, I took responsibility for him.
Just because I don't know what the differe...nce between humans and animals is doesn't mean slavery is ok. It just means its something that's very difficult to define. I am not saying I have all the answers.. I'm just saying that my half answers are more moral then the biblical god's morals.
34 minutes ago · Like
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A Bit Disgusted
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Calvin Goble
The more I talk to Christians, the more disgusted I am with their flippant baseless morals. How could I have ever believed this madness? Murder, rape, slavery... apparently all OK under some conditions. How could I have been so ignorant?
The very first time I read that kind of thing, I should have had a long good think and let it go.
Sunday at 10:54pm · Comment
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Nathan Gill
Haha. I'll address the slavery thing sometime soon, but in the meantime, I'm not seeing how a lack of morals is providing a solution to all your complaints.
Sunday at 11:11pm
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Calvin Goble
I'm sorry, I am confused... are you saying I have a lack of morals?
Sunday at 11:16pm
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Nathan Gill
Utterly and totally. The only thing you can hope to base a system of morals on is survival.
Sunday at 11:16pm
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Calvin Goble
well, that is simply not true.
Sunday at 11:17pm
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Nathan Gill
How so?
Sunday at 11:17pm
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Calvin Goble
My morals come from deep contemplation on the knowledge i have acquired from science and critical thinking.
Sunday at 11:23pm · 4 peopleAudrey Miller, Alan Sayter and 2 others like this.
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Calvin Goble
perhaps I will make a very long winded explanation on how I can go from 'an understanding of the world' to 'its wrong to kill babies'.
Sunday at 11:43pm
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Samuel Goodell
Calvin, you should write a book. I would buy /several/ copies of it.
Sunday at 11:46pm
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Jesse Hewitt
Murder is not OK and most of the stuff your using as examples yet again based solely in the old testament
Yesterday at 12:00am
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Calvin Goble
Jesse, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48, Ephesians 6:5, all talk about slavery being just fine with god. He never once says its not OK to enslave people. Also, why does it matter when god commanded men to kill children? Why is it ever OK to kill babies?
Yesterday at 12:35am
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Nick Robinson
You should check this book out
http://books.google.com/books?id=VttdxFt4kT4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+moral+landscape&hl=en&ei=fUwYTZTQKcP6lwfdhNyCDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
It addresses the long held misunderstanding that morals can't be determined by science.
Yesterday at 3:22am
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Yve Verstrepen
It's sad how lots of ppl think they need religion because otherwise they would have no morals. Are they saying they want to go on a killing & raping spree, but simple don't because they think they'll go to hell?
Yesterday at 5:08am
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Nathan Gill
Sorry, Calvin. You've got nothing new to add to this discussion. Rationalism as a basis for morality has been tried ever since recorded history began. It takes your own infallibility for granted for one thing. For another, since it depends ...entirely on individual "deep" contemplation, different people who engage in it will come up with different morals that will contradict one another. Truth doesn't contradict itself. Now, if you believe truth contradicts itself, there is no point prolonging this discussion, because your objection to Christianity itself is a statement of what you believe truth is not.
Yesterday at 9:11am
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Calvin Goble
Religion as a basis for morality has been tried since the dawn of man, and has failed continuously. Founding a moral structure on an immovable code is bound to fail as new information makes it clearly incorrect (like 'hey guys, maybe slavery is bad?') The atrocities made in the name of religious moral is vast and innumerable.
Science has its base in mans fallibility, and is our best method to overcome it.
Individual contemplation is definitely flawed, fortunately in this modern age global communication is so available, and because of it we are much closer to globally outlawing things like slavery. Also, do to my understanding of my own flaws and biases, I am able to adjust my morals to new evidence and come closer to truth.
You still seem to have trouble discerning the difference between our ability to perceive the truth and actual truth. Actual truth does not contradict itself, but we may have trouble obtaining it.
My objection to Christianity here IS its contradicting 'truths' ...telling us to commit genocide in one testament, and peace in another. Telling us to love each other and also to enslave each other.
You are correct in saying I have nothing new to add to this discussion, these kinds of moral arguments have been made and ignored for decades. All I am saying is, I am amazed I didn't see the simple truth sooner.
Yesterday at 9:47am
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Ashley Herdeker Bumgarner
I admire and respect you, Calvin, for your independent thinking. Despite our different beliefs, I still call you friend. Please accept my apology for those Christians who have treated you with disrespect. Love you, brother.
Yesterday at 10:58am
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Calvin Goble
Ashley, I don't need any apologies from you :D you have always treated me with huge amounts of respect. And you don't need to apologize for other Christians, some people are nice, some are mean, and I judge people individually (unlike the b...iblical god who slaughters men women and children just for being a part of an offending nation)
Also, understand that how i was treated by some Christians had no bearing on my decision to stop believing in things, it was purely a decision to follow the truth.
Yesterday at 12:55pm
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David Dirig
Is God Just?
Yesterday at 1:26pm
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Calvin Goble
The fictional biblical god is repeatedly unjust. He kills men, women, children and animals time and again for merely being related to those who did the actual 'crime'. Often that crime is merely not worshiping him. The following verses are ...so disgustingly immoral and unjust... i can just let them speak for themselves.
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
There are so many more verses like this... the list of unjust, immoral things done in the by god and in the name of god in the bible is staggering.
Yesterday at 1:45pm
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Nathan Gill
Calvin, saying things like "the fictional biblical god" is not only outside the bounds of what has been established in this conversation, it is offensive to those you are speaking to and presumptuous.
Addressing the prophetic verses alone, I... would make the point that here God is not APPROVING of what he predicts is going to be done. The world is lamentably full of sin, and evil happens outside of God's will. He USES evil for the good of His people, however. See the use of Assyria, "the instrument of the Lord's wrath", to bring his people to repentance. There's a difference between God causing this evil, and using man's evil to accomplish good.
Yesterday at 1:55pm
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Colin Eck
ignorance is such a disease
5 hours ago
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Calvin Goble
Nathan, what is presumptuous is assuming the existence of an invisible, all powerful, all knowing being who refuses to present any kind of empirical evidence of his existence. I cant help offending you any more then I can help offending peo...ple who believe in fictional faeries or fictional vampires.
Is it presumptuous to say that Zeus is fictional? what about Allah? maybe Rama? I have no more evidence for the existence of these fictional deity's then I do the biblical god.
How would you suggest I refer to something for which there is no empirical evidence? Is there some other word which you would find less offensive?
Now for an analogy: Two men are in a room, Bob and Bill. In this room there is a button which when pressed will cause an explosion leveling a city and killing every man woman and child within it. Bob has a tranquilizer gun. Bill tells Bob, "I am going to press that button, to hell with those people." and he leans forward to press the button. Bob does nothing, even though he could use the gun to disable Bill without causing him any real harm. Bill presses the button and the city burns. Who is to blame?
I don't know what your morals say about that situation. But to me, Bobs inaction is as immoral as Bills actions.
And the (fictional) biblical god is as guilty for 'using' evil to cause genocide as the people who act it out. There is a difference between using and causing evil.. but the moral responsibility is the same. Regardless of this, what about the many times it has instead been gods commandment or direct actions that caused mass murder?
Colin, ignorance is not a disease, nor does it act in any way like a disease. Ideas or memes are sometimes viral like, but they are not a lack of knowledge. It seems you are trying to say that ignorance is a bad thing, and I agree with that.
However, seeing as I was once a believer like yourself, read quite a bit of the bible, and graduated from the same christian school as you did, I am not sure what you are suggesting I am ignorant of in the context of this discussion.
2 hours ago
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Nathan Gill
Calvin, do you know anything about logical argumentation? These debates are all over the existence of God, and until you disprove that, you cannot presuppose that God doesn't exist. That's about as elementary as it is obvious.
2 hours ago
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David Dirig
Is it possible for one's choices to result in either the benefit or suffering of those in their charge?
2 hours ago
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David Dirig
If you were a god, would you ever resort to death as a punishment? Why/Why not? If yes, for what offense/s?
2 hours ago
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Calvin Goble
Nathan, lets hear you disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns. So I can see how you expect me to prove a negative.
Dave, Many choices can result in benefit or suffering, whether you are in charge of people or not. If I were an all ...powerful, all knowing god, no, I would never choose death as a punishment. Instead of punishment I would think of something awesome and powerful to do... but even though I am not all knowing even I could come up with ideas... Angel run hyperspace rehabilitation chambers, where people who are 'evil' can experience a virtual world where they can do no wrong until they change? But I'm sure an all powerful, all knowing god could come up with something better then that.
about an hour ago
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Nathan Gill
Calvin, you are the one trying to prove a negative. Show me something that spontaneously formed itself out of nothing and I may admit you have a point. Until then, the burden of proof is on you. Regardless, I expect you to follow the rules of logical, rational conversation if you expect to get anywhere constructively. That means no presuppositions. If unbiased rationality is impossible for you, the viability of your system of belief isn't very auspicious, since that's what it's apparently based on...
about an hour ago
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David Dirig
Is collateral damage to others a possible result from one's actions?
59 minutes ago
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Calvin Goble
Nathan, *facedesk* You are the one making the claim that god is real... the burden of proof is on you, not me. Do you have some empirical evidence for the existence of god that I don't know about? And how many times have I tried to explain,... i don't hold beliefs, nor do I have a system of them.
Dave, Seems so. If I go to catch a falling baby and end up knocking over a glass of milk, I would help clean up the mess.
51 minutes ago
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Nathan Gill
Calvin, my desk is the one with an imprint on it. I gave you empirical evidence so vast, so sweeping, that it's hard to wrap one's mind around. When in the observable world has something ever come from nothing?
50 minutes ago
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Calvin Goble
And this is evidence for your biblical god? and not zeus? not one of the other thousands of other gods man has come up with? What about a god we don't know about.
Again, I am not saying "there is no god" ...I don't know, I don't have that ki...nd of evidence, seems unlikely and unnecessary, but I don't know... I just don't see any evidence for a biblical god.
46 minutes ago · Like
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