Facebook Conversations with Christains

I recently engaged in two conversations on facebook. One on a friends post, one on mine. I wanted to document them here for future reference. This is the transcript of both in full... it might be a bit tricky to read, but I tried to lay it out and clean it up as best I could. I think both of these clearly showcase the bias's Christians often assume as fact. It was my hope that through these conversations a doubting believer would get a chance I never had, and see some rationality. I wasn't so much trying to convince these people, as I was trying to convince those who were reading but not commenting.

Slavery
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Nathan Gill
?"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~Patrick Henry
Sunday at 8:15pm

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      3 people like this.
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            Calvin Goble
            Hmm... That's odd, God doesn't seem to forbid it... he seems to encourage slavery throughout the bible. Patrick probably didn't read the bible much? Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:20-21, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5
            Sunday at 8:38pm
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            Mary Hawley Dirig
            Way out of context, Calvin. The whole point of Nathan's quote was that he didn't want to be slave to the government. But to address your references, at those points in history it was the way of life to own slaves. God simply gave rules for the fair treatment of said workers. Do any of us have a choice whether or not to work? We're all slaves to something. That's all I'm going to say on the subject.
            Sunday at 9:04pm
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            Calvin Goble
            First you say its out of context and then you tell me everyone is a slave to something anyway....???

            I can do whatever I like within the law, whenever I want without someone threatening to kill me... its called freedom. I am not a slave to a...nything. If I wanted to, I could move to the mountains and kill animals for food, I don't have to work for anyone but myself, and in fact I am self employed.

            It is immoral to enslave people. But God seems to think it's ok.... oh, unless you are a chosen one: "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Leviticus 25:44-46
            Why is it ok to enslave other people, but not Israelites? Why does God never say, 'hey, forcing people to work for you is bad' when it is so obviously immoral?
            Sunday at 9:21pm
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            Nathan Gill
            Calvin, your strong stance against slavery is commendable, but I find it very ironic that you would single out a quote by an evangelical Christian, and particularly Patrick Henry, as the place to claim Christianity promotes slavery. I'm sur...e we can agree with the facts: slavery has always existed in every culture, whether African, Oriental, European or American. How interesting, then, after thousands of years of existence that the ONLY countries in which it was opposed, and, in fact, ended, were Christian ones? Are you familiar with William Wilberforce, the Christian evangelical who almost singlehandedly ended the slave trade throughout the British Empire? Are you familiar with Horace Mann, Henry Ward Beecher and William Lloyd Garrison? These were the three leading abolitionists in the United States, and all were active members of Christian denominations.

            Slavery is never specifically condemned in the Bible, though it is never encouraged. Let's look at what slavery actually is, though. There's a lot of bogeyism associated with it. The Princeton dictionary gives this definition: "the state of being under the control of another person." That's all that slavery is. What do you consider imprisonment? That's a punishment where you are under someone else's control, except you are left in a cell to rot rather than working. What about paying taxes to the state? You have no choice about being born into that obligation. Where do you draw the line? Slavery is not inherently wrong as a punishment for crime, as long as it is regulated by laws, as Old Testament slavery was, and as forced "community service" is today. Biblical-era debtors were enslaved, captives taken in war were enslaved rather than executed, some people CHOSE to remain slaves, as evidenced by Deuteronomy 15:12-18 and other Old Testament provisions for slaves who didn't wish to be freed. The provisions of food and shelter slavery provided when the master was merciful were often preferable to an uncertain, poverty-stricken life. Slaves were to be treated humanely, and they could gain their freedom (Certainly a better fate than spending life in prison, or being killed): Deuteronomy 15:12–18, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 4:1. Slavery based on race where laws protecting the workers are ignored is what we mostly think of as slavery today, but that's not all it is. Slavery has rarely been based on race, even in the ancient world. You may recall that the instance when it was is the story of the Israelites being freed from racial slavery in Egypt.

            In the New Testament, slavery clearly runs contrary to the New Covenant. In a pagan world (which, interestingly was based very much on rationalism. Aristotle, the ultimate empiricist and rationalist, thought slavery was inevitable and beneficial) that was filled with slaves, this was revolutionary: Galatians 3:28 said boldly that, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Think about the context of that society - that was a shocking thing to say! Slave traders are specifically condemned in 1 Timothy 1:10. The whole purpose of the book of Philemon is Paul pleading with Philemon to treat his runaway slave Onesimus with mercy, and to consider freeing him. 1 Corinthians 7:23 shows that Paul considered human slavery a reprehensible thing. If you're looking for a specific injunction to eliminate the institution, you won't find it explicitly. That would have amounted to fomenting slave insurrections and would have resulted in the extermination of Christians by the Roman authorities. They had come through the rebellions of Spartacus and other slaves the century before. You also won't find calls for democratic referendums, written constitutions or bills of rights in the Bible. All of these ideals we take for granted that were secured at our Revolution are in the essence of Christianity, but never specifically stated, for Christ's kingdom is within us. We are to be free from sin. Only then does the rest follow suit.

            In the evolutionary world there is no reason to oppose slavery. Natural selection, the "survival of the fittest" and other godless doctrines lead to an inevitable hierarchy and caste system.
            Yesterday at 10:58am
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            Nathan Gill
            Also, if you could please show me where a non-Christian society has ever come close to doing what the Christian societies have, I'd appreciate it. In Biblical times the closest thing you can point to are the ancient Greeks, who were the epitome of empiricism and rational thinking of their day and age. As you know, their brightest minds ended up justifying slavery. Obviously morality's source is not found in rational thought.
            Yesterday at 11:11am
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            Calvin Goble
            Firstly, every point you just made does not detract from the simple fact that enslavement is wrong, and god talks about it like its ok.

            The fact that over time the world as a whole, both christian and non christian, eventually decided that slavery is wrong... goes more to proving my point then yours.

            "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21

            How can you tell me honestly that this is moral and right? Is it ok to beat a slave as long as you don't kill them right away? Under what definition of slave is this alright?

            No sane intelligent person bases their morality on the natural world. Survival of the fittest is a horrific thing. Does it happen out there in nature, yes. Does this mean we should emulate it? NO. No sane intelligent person blindly grabs facts about the universe and directly applies them to morals. As I have said, my morals come from deep contemplation about the things we learn from science about the world. This includes a concepts like sympathy and considering what it means to be conscious, and realizing that what is best, is that everyone is treated with love and respect.
            The fact that I have pointed this out to you on many occasions now, and you still blindly believe that survival of the fittest is my moral code, demonstrates yet again how belief clouds your ability to take in new information.

            Understand that I am not suggesting that you are not a moral person, nor do I think Patrick was immoral. I think most sane rational people develop morals that tell them things like 'slavery is wrong', 'its not ok to murder children' and 'rape is never ok'. What I am suggesting is that your god does not hold these morals, or at least he didn't at some point in time. I am also not suggesting that past atheistic cultures (are there even any of those?) did not encourage or endorse slavery. They probably did. What I am saying is that slavery is wrong, and anyone who suggests otherwise is also wrong, whether they agree with me on other points or not.
            Yesterday at 1:27pm
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            Nathan Gill
            Please tell me what it is specifically about slavery that is wrong. You are ignoring several of the points I raised in my previous post.

            Second, the apostle Paul and the other authors were inspired by God's Spirit to write the biblical books..., so when he condemns the institution, it is synonymous with God condemning it. I know that you will not accept that, but rejection of it is based upon your presupposition that God does not exist.

            How does it do that? Only where Christianity has existed has slavery been condemned or abolished.

            That verse you quote (Exodus 21:20-21) is obviously meant to protect slaves. What other cultures of that day and age had similar laws that protected slaves who were often thought to be subhuman? Often there were no laws at all. Is this, then, merciful or cruel?

            Well, Calvin, I am genuinely glad to hear that you eschew survival of the fittest and other evolutionary cornerstones as a basis upon which to build a morality (if indeed that can even be done). You obviously have a strong moral sense and convictions, but I don't think you will ever find the stability and justice you obviously and commendably seek except in the Christian God. Your stated source of morals is obscure and oblique. Even if you could be completely right in what you hold to by this method, others who followed the same steps to build their own moralities would come to different conclusions. This would lead to clashes in society and lawlessness because of a lack of one overarching morality. None of us have all the answers, and we are all blinded by prejudice, blindness, the need to justify ourselves, emotion, and fallible intellects. You say you believe this, which is good, but in practice you are anything but consistent. You say it is my lack of understanding, but you cannot possibly claim anything beyond natural selection as a basis for your morality. Be consistent with what you believe.

            Regardless of the disagreement we'll maintain on that point, I would be interested to hear why you believe slavery is wrong, your reason for believing that, and how you come to such a conclusion.
            Yesterday at 1:49pm
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            Calvin Goble
            i'll respond tomorrow, super busy at the moment, sorry.
            Yesterday at 1:54pm
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            Nathan Gill That's fine. Me too.
            Yesterday at 1:55pm
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            Calvin Goble
            Lets start with the definition of slavery: Slavery is any system under which societal roles as 'property' are imposed on humans.
            Treating humans like property is wrong because it allows for things like:

            Beatings - "When a man strikes his male... or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 (I am not sure how saying its ok to beat them as long as they don't die right away is protecting them)

            Imprisonment

            Forced Labor (presumably in fear of the beatings)

            And often, slavery is linked to racism or just treating anyone who isn't like you as if they are less human - "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Leviticus 25:44-46

            I willfully ignored some of your previous points because, "every point you just made does not detract from the simple fact that enslavement is wrong, and god talks about it like its ok." Why does god go on about what you can and cant eat (Deuteronomy 14:3-21) or what material your clothing can be made from (Leviticus 19:19 yes i am aware this is just for the Levities) but he fails to mention that you shouldn't treat people like property? It seems like a major oversight to me. The point here is not who is the least evil slavers of the old testament times. It is purely the contradiction that slavery is wrong, and your loving and just god allows for it.

            I don't find any stability or justice in the biblical god, only contradicting, poorly thought out, bronze age laws.

            I agree that none of us have all the answers, and that our ability to single handedly observe and understand the world is poor. If that's how it worked, we would likely be in chaos. However those who follow this method of thinking do not keep it to themselves, and they are not ridged rules like your biblical commandments. They are open to discussion, reason, and change. My morals are not perfect... which is why I endeavor to improve them.

            The reason I say my morals are based on Science is because it has continuously proven itself to be the best method for understanding the world around us. Science is capable of admitting when it got something wrong, reanalyzing the data and seeking better conclusions that fit the evidence.

            It is the nature of science that shows me the benefits of peaceful, creative, collaboration between humans. Alone I can not find the truth, but many working together can get closer to it. Science works by creating tests that others can replicate and verify. Without a large group practicing science, it would be subject to my imperfections and bias and hardly worth doing. It is science that leads me to see that the other humans around me are thinking, feeling, beings like myself. And it is my ability through deep, contemplative, abstract thought that I am able to 'put myself in their shoes'. Through these things I can (selfishly) imagine the kind of world I wish to live in. One where love and respect for everyone is the norm.

            It is from these stepping stones that I can easily come to the conclusion that slavery is wrong.
            about an hour ago
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            Nathan Gill
            You're good at articulating what is wrong or right with something, but not why it's right or wrong. Why don't you believe that humans can be property? After all, you have a pet cat. That pet is your property, and as a fellow species of animal I would say there's no difference between that lifeform being your property and having another human being as your property. What about farm animals?
            55 minutes ago
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            Calvin Goble
            haha, I am more Hobbes property then he is mine. He does what he wants, and I let him outside when he wants... if he didn't want to come back, I would miss him, but that's his call. No slavery going on there. (also I don't force him into la...bor... like that would work)

            I thought I said why I think its wrong, I am sorry you didn't follow. Here is the concise simple version: Humans working together is good -> If I was forced to work and treated like property I would hate it -> abstract thoughts tell me other people would also hate it -> slavery is bad and hurts, not doing slavery is much better for everyone.
            47 minutes ago
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            Calvin Goble
            Yeah, farm animals are more complicated... there's something that keeps me up at night.
            46 minutes ago
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            Nathan Gill
            You mock it, but it's a logical question given what you're saying. Do you think keeping livestock is immoral?

            Did you buy your cat? Isn't that an immoral concept?

            Concerning your last point, you seem to be admitting that this is all based on ...your (one person's -not exactly a good sample) feelings but I'll let that slide. How do you explain the many people through history people who have voluntarily enslaved themselves?

            Your other defense is a utilitarian one. But what if it results in greater productivity? After all, why is hurting someone inherently wrong?
            41 minutes ago
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            Nathan Gill
            What all these questions are tending towards is establishing that there is obviously a vast difference between human beings and animals, but you cannot possibly provide it. Therefore, you'll be hard pressed to prove slavery is wrong (speaking of which, doesn't "proving" involve absolute truth?).
            39 minutes ago
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            Calvin Goble
            I am not mocking it... it honestly keeps me up at night thinking about stuff like that.
            No, I did not buy Hobbes, there was no one to take care of him, his mother died, I took responsibility for him.
            Just because I don't know what the differe...nce between humans and animals is doesn't mean slavery is ok. It just means its something that's very difficult to define. I am not saying I have all the answers.. I'm just saying that my half answers are more moral then the biblical god's morals.
            34 minutes ago · Like
           
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A Bit Disgusted
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Calvin Goble
The more I talk to Christians, the more disgusted I am with their flippant baseless morals. How could I have ever believed this madness? Murder, rape, slavery... apparently all OK under some conditions. How could I have been so ignorant?
The very first time I read that kind of thing, I should have had a long good think and let it go.
Sunday at 10:54pm · Comment

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            Nathan Gill
            Haha. I'll address the slavery thing sometime soon, but in the meantime, I'm not seeing how a lack of morals is providing a solution to all your complaints.
            Sunday at 11:11pm
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            Calvin Goble
            I'm sorry, I am confused... are you saying I have a lack of morals?
            Sunday at 11:16pm
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            Nathan Gill
            Utterly and totally. The only thing you can hope to base a system of morals on is survival.
            Sunday at 11:16pm
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            Calvin Goble
            well, that is simply not true.
            Sunday at 11:17pm
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            Nathan Gill
            How so?
            Sunday at 11:17pm
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            Calvin Goble
            My morals come from deep contemplation on the knowledge i have acquired from science and critical thinking.
            Sunday at 11:23pm · 4 peopleAudrey Miller, Alan Sayter and 2 others like this.
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            Calvin Goble
            perhaps I will make a very long winded explanation on how I can go from 'an understanding of the world' to 'its wrong to kill babies'.
            Sunday at 11:43pm
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            Samuel Goodell
            Calvin, you should write a book. I would buy /several/ copies of it.
            Sunday at 11:46pm
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            Jesse Hewitt
            Murder is not OK and most of the stuff your using as examples yet again based solely in the old testament
            Yesterday at 12:00am
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            Calvin Goble
            Jesse, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48, Ephesians 6:5, all talk about slavery being just fine with god. He never once says its not OK to enslave people. Also, why does it matter when god commanded men to kill children? Why is it ever OK to kill babies?
            Yesterday at 12:35am
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            Nick Robinson
            You should check this book out

            http://books.google.com/books?id=VttdxFt4kT4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+moral+landscape&hl=en&ei=fUwYTZTQKcP6lwfdhNyCDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

            It addresses the long held misunderstanding that morals can't be determined by science.
            Yesterday at 3:22am
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            Yve Verstrepen
            It's sad how lots of ppl think they need religion because otherwise they would have no morals. Are they saying they want to go on a killing & raping spree, but simple don't because they think they'll go to hell?
            Yesterday at 5:08am
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            Nathan Gill
            Sorry, Calvin. You've got nothing new to add to this discussion. Rationalism as a basis for morality has been tried ever since recorded history began. It takes your own infallibility for granted for one thing. For another, since it depends ...entirely on individual "deep" contemplation, different people who engage in it will come up with different morals that will contradict one another. Truth doesn't contradict itself. Now, if you believe truth contradicts itself, there is no point prolonging this discussion, because your objection to Christianity itself is a statement of what you believe truth is not.
            Yesterday at 9:11am
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            Calvin Goble
            Religion as a basis for morality has been tried since the dawn of man, and has failed continuously. Founding a moral structure on an immovable code is bound to fail as new information makes it clearly incorrect (like 'hey guys, maybe slavery is bad?') The atrocities made in the name of religious moral is vast and innumerable.

            Science has its base in mans fallibility, and is our best method to overcome it.

            Individual contemplation is definitely flawed, fortunately in this modern age global communication is so available, and because of it we are much closer to globally outlawing things like slavery. Also, do to my understanding of my own flaws and biases, I am able to adjust my morals to new evidence and come closer to truth.

            You still seem to have trouble discerning the difference between our ability to perceive the truth and actual truth. Actual truth does not contradict itself, but we may have trouble obtaining it.

            My objection to Christianity here IS its contradicting 'truths' ...telling us to commit genocide in one testament, and peace in another. Telling us to love each other and also to enslave each other.

            You are correct in saying I have nothing new to add to this discussion, these kinds of moral arguments have been made and ignored for decades. All I am saying is, I am amazed I didn't see the simple truth sooner.
            Yesterday at 9:47am
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            Ashley Herdeker Bumgarner
            I admire and respect you, Calvin, for your independent thinking. Despite our different beliefs, I still call you friend. Please accept my apology for those Christians who have treated you with disrespect. Love you, brother.
            Yesterday at 10:58am
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            Calvin Goble
            Ashley, I don't need any apologies from you :D you have always treated me with huge amounts of respect. And you don't need to apologize for other Christians, some people are nice, some are mean, and I judge people individually (unlike the b...iblical god who slaughters men women and children just for being a part of an offending nation)
            Also, understand that how i was treated by some Christians had no bearing on my decision to stop believing in things, it was purely a decision to follow the truth.
            Yesterday at 12:55pm
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            David Dirig
            Is God Just?
            Yesterday at 1:26pm
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            Calvin Goble
            The fictional biblical god is repeatedly unjust. He kills men, women, children and animals time and again for merely being related to those who did the actual 'crime'. Often that crime is merely not worshiping him. The following verses are ...so disgustingly immoral and unjust... i can just let them speak for themselves.

            Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

            As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

            "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

            Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

            From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

            A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

            They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

            If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

            When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

            There are so many more verses like this... the list of unjust, immoral things done in the by god and in the name of god in the bible is staggering.
            Yesterday at 1:45pm
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            Nathan Gill
            Calvin, saying things like "the fictional biblical god" is not only outside the bounds of what has been established in this conversation, it is offensive to those you are speaking to and presumptuous.

            Addressing the prophetic verses alone, I... would make the point that here God is not APPROVING of what he predicts is going to be done. The world is lamentably full of sin, and evil happens outside of God's will. He USES evil for the good of His people, however. See the use of Assyria, "the instrument of the Lord's wrath", to bring his people to repentance. There's a difference between God causing this evil, and using man's evil to accomplish good.
            Yesterday at 1:55pm
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            Colin Eck
            ignorance is such a disease
            5 hours ago
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            Calvin Goble
            Nathan, what is presumptuous is assuming the existence of an invisible, all powerful, all knowing being who refuses to present any kind of empirical evidence of his existence. I cant help offending you any more then I can help offending peo...ple who believe in fictional faeries or fictional vampires.

            Is it presumptuous to say that Zeus is fictional? what about Allah? maybe Rama? I have no more evidence for the existence of these fictional deity's then I do the biblical god.

            How would you suggest I refer to something for which there is no empirical evidence? Is there some other word which you would find less offensive?

            Now for an analogy: Two men are in a room, Bob and Bill. In this room there is a button which when pressed will cause an explosion leveling a city and killing every man woman and child within it. Bob has a tranquilizer gun. Bill tells Bob, "I am going to press that button, to hell with those people." and he leans forward to press the button. Bob does nothing, even though he could use the gun to disable Bill without causing him any real harm. Bill presses the button and the city burns. Who is to blame?

            I don't know what your morals say about that situation. But to me, Bobs inaction is as immoral as Bills actions.

            And the (fictional) biblical god is as guilty for 'using' evil to cause genocide as the people who act it out. There is a difference between using and causing evil.. but the moral responsibility is the same. Regardless of this, what about the many times it has instead been gods commandment or direct actions that caused mass murder?

            Colin, ignorance is not a disease, nor does it act in any way like a disease. Ideas or memes are sometimes viral like, but they are not a lack of knowledge. It seems you are trying to say that ignorance is a bad thing, and I agree with that.

            However, seeing as I was once a believer like yourself, read quite a bit of the bible, and graduated from the same christian school as you did, I am not sure what you are suggesting I am ignorant of in the context of this discussion.
            2 hours ago
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            Nathan Gill
            Calvin, do you know anything about logical argumentation? These debates are all over the existence of God, and until you disprove that, you cannot presuppose that God doesn't exist. That's about as elementary as it is obvious.
            2 hours ago
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            David Dirig
            Is it possible for one's choices to result in either the benefit or suffering of those in their charge?
            2 hours ago
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            David Dirig
            If you were a god, would you ever resort to death as a punishment? Why/Why not? If yes, for what offense/s?
            2 hours ago
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            Calvin Goble
            Nathan, lets hear you disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns. So I can see how you expect me to prove a negative.

            Dave, Many choices can result in benefit or suffering, whether you are in charge of people or not. If I were an all ...powerful, all knowing god, no, I would never choose death as a punishment. Instead of punishment I would think of something awesome and powerful to do... but even though I am not all knowing even I could come up with ideas... Angel run hyperspace rehabilitation chambers, where people who are 'evil' can experience a virtual world where they can do no wrong until they change? But I'm sure an all powerful, all knowing god could come up with something better then that.
            about an hour ago
          o
            Nathan Gill
            Calvin, you are the one trying to prove a negative. Show me something that spontaneously formed itself out of nothing and I may admit you have a point. Until then, the burden of proof is on you. Regardless, I expect you to follow the rules of logical, rational conversation if you expect to get anywhere constructively. That means no presuppositions. If unbiased rationality is impossible for you, the viability of your system of belief isn't very auspicious, since that's what it's apparently based on...
            about an hour ago
          o
            David Dirig
            Is collateral damage to others a possible result from one's actions?
            59 minutes ago
          o
            Calvin Goble
            Nathan, *facedesk* You are the one making the claim that god is real... the burden of proof is on you, not me. Do you have some empirical evidence for the existence of god that I don't know about? And how many times have I tried to explain,... i don't hold beliefs, nor do I have a system of them.

            Dave, Seems so. If I go to catch a falling baby and end up knocking over a glass of milk, I would help clean up the mess.
            51 minutes ago
          o
            Nathan Gill
            Calvin, my desk is the one with an imprint on it. I gave you empirical evidence so vast, so sweeping, that it's hard to wrap one's mind around. When in the observable world has something ever come from nothing?
            50 minutes ago
          o
            Calvin Goble
            And this is evidence for your biblical god? and not zeus? not one of the other thousands of other gods man has come up with? What about a god we don't know about.

            Again, I am not saying "there is no god" ...I don't know, I don't have that ki...nd of evidence, seems unlikely and unnecessary, but I don't know... I just don't see any evidence for a biblical god.
            46 minutes ago · Like

Motivation

A friend of mine in N8 asked me how i kept so motivated. I thought my response was good enough to post here as well:

I thought about this for a few minutes, its odd that I haven't given more thought to it.
I remember a time when I was not this motivated.

It's all about love.
a.) I love Ix, she has been working for almost 4 years now, while i 'goofed off' trying to make a game and made no money for us... i HAVE to make something of this, i have to keep working or im just a lazy bum who leaches off his girl. I promised I would be ready by October... so, i don't have a choice but to work my ass off.
b.) I love being alive... and the purpose behind N8 is that first step to staying that way. For everyone, not just me. And I dont know if i will see the day thats going to work out, but I have to try and get there. Every second I delay is a second someone else will die in agony due to age. Not something I can keep in mind all the time (i would go mad), but something I keep in the background to push me when nothing else does.
c.) I love N8*. It's one of the games I have always wanted, or it will be once its done. And I think it has the power to change people, and I don't like most people... so this is a step closer to living in a world of people i want to be around.

Emotions motivate, chemical reactions in your brain to make you want to do something much more complicated then those chemicals.. its pretty awesome. I recommend getting very pissed off whenever your not doing what you want, doesnt mean you have to flip out and throw stuff (or you can, sometimes i do) but it means its time for violent change.. things are wrong, they can be fixed, time to make it better. If your sure that things can not be fixed, be sad. Sadness is storing up energy. Be sad, take a nap, wake up with a bit more energy and see if you can use that to solve whatever. When your happy, it means everything is as it should be, keep doing what your doing... But love will push things the extra mile, love is like bees.

bees work all day, they give to the plants, take what they need and produce so much honey its left over for other animals to harvest. They are over-unity, anti-entropic, a force of pure good.

If i was going to pick a role model, bee's would be it. Find things you love, you wont be able to help being motivated like that.

Eccentric

Eccentricity is often associated with genius, intellectual giftedness, or creativity. The individual's eccentric behavior is perceived to be the outward expression of his or her unique intelligence or creative impulse. In this vein, the eccentric's habits are incomprehensible not because they are illogical or the result of madness, but because they stem from a mind so original that it cannot be conformed to societal norms. English Utilitarian thinker John Stuart Mill wrote that "the amount of eccentricity in a society has generally been proportional to the amount of genius, mental vigour, and moral courage which it contained", and mourned a lack of eccentricity as "the chief danger of the time". Edith Sitwell wrote that eccentricity is "often a kind of innocent pride", also saying that geniuses and aristocrats are called eccentrics because "they are entirely unafraid of and uninfluenced by the opinions and vagaries of the crowd."

Wikipedia has a list of the Characteristics of an Eccentric (of course with sources). Lets take a look at my life and see if I am eccentric.

Nonconforming attitude: Check,  Alix and I decided we were married because we made a promise to each other bought and exchanged rings. It was years before we acquired legal documents or had a ceremony. The problem with a conforming attitude is, no thought goes into most of your actions, people do things a particular way because everyone does it that way. But I think about what I want and how things really are, and then base my decisions on that.

Creative: Check, http://cl0ckw0rked.deviantart.com/

Intense curiosity: Check, hard to give a single example to pinpoint this one... but if I am not being creative, I am probably investigating Corvid intelligence or trying to understand what it means for a colony of bees to be a super organism or trying to wrap my head around quantum physics or attempting to understand cellular biology or learning about electronics so a can build my own wrist watch or dabbling in a new programing language... etc etc etc.

Idealistic: Check, At least I have been told this on many occasions. If your not pursuing an ideal then you've given up already, why bother doing anything.

Happy obsession with a hobby or hobbies: Check, http://8bit.neverdaunt.com/

Known very early in his or her childhood they were different from others: Check, Was it the wandering around our neighborhood with a home made ghost detector or spending every recess huddled over my time machine plans that tipped me off? No, it was going over to my friends house and seeing their Lego collection, all assembled and displayed in the shelf... that's when i knew everyone else was crazy, why would anyone build what was in the prepackaged instructions???!?!?!

Highly intelligent: Check, http://8bit.neverdaunt.com/

Opinionated and outspoken: Check, http://aionsreason.blogspot.com/


Unusual living or eating habits: Check and Check, our house is setup in a form follows function kind of manor. beyond that I have been planning the purchase of an Island with a group of friends in less then 2 years. As far as eating goes, I hate food (but that's a whole blog entry of its own).

Not interested in the opinions or company of others: Check, my brother when introducing me to friends used to say "This is my brother Calvin, he's anti-social" be cause that was the quickest way to inform them as to why I wouldn't be talking to them much, asking them the normal questions that people do when they meet each other... because I don't really care about their opinion of the weather lately.

Mischievous sense of humor: Check, http://8bit.neverdaunt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1379

Single: very not check... I think this is because its rare for an eccentric to meet and fall in love with another eccentric... win.

Usually the eldest or an only child: Check

Dreams, Teeth, Zeppelins.

I used to have a lot of recurring dreams where I could deal with fears and issues that affected me but I couldn't quite overcome for some reason. Back in the day, I had this one where I was walking home from school and these kids appeared and mocked me, along with clowns and other creepy dream stuff. I think I had this dream over and over because I still held on to these self doubts and pains from school... but I couldn't go back to that time and confront them and resolve it. So I drempt it, and eventually became impervious to it.

I dont have many fears left.
However, last night I beat an asshole of a guy to a bloody pulp because he hit on Alix. :\ this is a problem... somewhat of a recurring dream, and I really need to figure out how to get past it... beating someone up is not the solution to this issue, the problem is I have a fear. I need to remember what that fear is and how to deal with it, via reason and control... not giving in to the fear.


The only other recurring dream I have is of so very many teeth falling out of my mouth... more then I have. I'm sure I am not alone in these types of dreams. My current lucid response is to recognize how stupid this is and create a stream of teeth beaming from my mouth and spray it around the room in a mock "zomg this is so horrible over the top invader zim" kind of way.

Going to the dentist today to finish up one of my root canals.

On a lighter note!
Soon heading to meet some other Islanders. Where we will likely hang out and discuss all kinds of awesome things.

my future plans include:
Buy Island with these cool people
Build my own Zeppelin
Construct 'print anything' printer
Air drop printers around the world and free them from capitalism.

Big impossible goals right? But each one only a little bigger then the next.... the first only a little bigger then writing a Massively Multiplayer Online Game by myself. After those come defeating death and a moon base... srsly.

Anyhow, I am excited about my Zeppelin. Major problems with zeppelin technology have been solved at this point... but they still aren't built because people are irrationally fearful of all that hydrogen. They were unstable in most weather conditions, unable to rise above gusts of wind due to air pressure... now we have pressurized cabins. Ive also been looking into designing terrestrial solar sails... lots of cool possibility. And I am sure I can find some tricks and shortcuts for building the thing... thinking about constructing a large scale 3D printer...Also, a high altitude platform like a Zeppelin is a great place to launch a spaceship to reach my Moon Base.

Death Metal... WTF?

I went to a metal concert at the request of Alix. Her friend, Melissa's boyfriend, Robbie is the keyboard player for one of the bands that was playing... I've heard Robbie play before, he's fairly awesome.

And I like me some metal sometimes:


But what I listened to last night could have been replaced with random noise and a drum machine. It was basically a constant deafening roar. Drop every "singer" out of each of those bands, turn the volume down to those perceivable by the human ear, turn down the bass, turn up the lead guitar and keyboard.. and maybe you'd find some music in there somewhere

But the worst part was the stupidest version of moshing I've ever seen. People flailing around their arms like windmills, kicking and punching each other, and stomping around like gorillas... which might have been scary if they weren't lanky emo teenagers. Fake anger is hysterical, but I didn't get a chance to lol because I was busy trying to make sure no one hit Alix. Did I mention they also served beer? Flailing like an idiot + beer bottles = broken bottles and bleeding morons.

I don't think I've ever seen such a quantity of unabashed human stupidity.

Alix: I'm sorry, you feel really uncomfortable here?
Me: And that's different from any other place on the planet?
Alix: ...no.

The evening started with a mentally retarded guy (i mean this in the literal sense) dressed up as Michael Jackson (a red suit with black ducktape on it and a white glove) attempting to dance to Thriller on the stage... Everything went downhill after that.


I'll leave you with this little gem.

Interview

I was recently interviewed by a UK video-game magazine... maybe I'm not supposed to post stuff like this before they publish it.. oh well.... hardly anyone reads this blog anyhow :D

Questions – Neverdaunt: 8bit

1. First, tell me about yourself. When did you first get involved with game design, and why?

A better question might be why didn't I stop designing games? Every kid I have ever met is a game designer. You start with stuff like "Don't touch the floor, its lava." and as you get older the games become more complicated... but most people stop, like there is nothing else to create or learn, I don't really know why. I think games and play is the most natural method of learning for human beings, and most other mammals. I don't think I've stopped making games at any point in my life. N8* itself is designed around players making up their own games to play.. so they can come back to that point, be creative, and teach each other something new.
I am completely self taught, and I have never worked in the game industry before. I wrote code for myself when I needed it, and like creating 3D art. Games are just the obvious next step. Of course everyone told me to start off small, an MMO is no way to start learning how to write games... but I didn't want to write other games. I wanted to write Neverdaunt. I wanted to play Neverdaunt.
I've had the idea for Neverdaunt for so long I don't remember where it started. I attempted to start working on it a bunch of times. Sometimes with a group who would never put in the same amount of work I did, and often while working a full time job. Eventually I realized it would never exist if I wasn't working on it all the time. I talked to my wife, Alix, and naively asked her for one year. Three years later, I'm in beta. If you see her in the game as the goddess Ix, thank her. She has supported me every step of the way, the game wouldn't exist without her.

2. Where did you get the idea for Neverdaunt: 8bit from? Did you always intend for it to be an MMO?

I think it came out of my disappointment with other MMOs. I've played WoW and Ragnarok Online quite a bit, and a few others. But what I imagined those could be compared to what they are... its the grind and leveling mostly. Kill monsters, get XP, collect drops, turn in quest, levelup. But why? What was the point of leveling up? So you could do the exact same thing over again but with different monster graphics? Becoming stronger faster then your friends until they were unable to play along side you anymore? That kinda sucked. I wanted to experience a world, become someone in it. Where magic was something you had to really learn and study, where you could be better at it then someone else because you were more creative. I wanted a place where you excelled at combat because you became good at it, not because you spent more time clicking buttons then someone else. N8 is not completely there yet, but it will be.

What were your key influences?

Lego's, I have spent countless hours of my life playing Lego's with my brother. We would never keep the store models together for very long, eventually they would be torn apart and built into the design of our collaborative universe. Super Mario Bros. 3 ...its my comfort game. Picking up a leaf that turns you into a raccoon makes perfect sense in Nippon, in the rest of the world, its just crazy weird... and that's exactly the way I want N8 to feel. I am Also a big Anime fan, i love stuff like FLCL, Trigun, Full Metal Alchemist and Bleach.. so I'm sure there is a bit of that in there. And I seem to watch Tron a lot while I'm coding?

3. I review a lot of independent games, and while there are many great examples, there seems to be a lot more repetitive, copycat design. Do you agree, and was Neverdaunt a conscious attempt to try something different?

Yes! It drives me crazy. Its not hard to be creative, I can come up with a dozen new awesome game ideas in an afternoon... Why would you make another first person shooter halo clone when you can make a game about giant kittens that destroy cities for points? Especially when your an Indy developer, with no constraints of publishers or corporations telling you what will work and what wont
N8* however was not an attempt to do something different, if I tried to make a clone game it would bore me, I wouldn't want to play it, and I would never even finish it. Its not that I was trying to break the mold, its just that what I wanted to create didn't fit it.

4. Building is a key part of the experience, which really encourages people to experiment and play. Did you want to avoid the more controlled, directed experience offered by mainstream MMOs?

Absolutely. In N8* you can have actual adventures, where the direction and end is unknown. Its not even so much a game itself as it is a playground where you play games and have adventures. Every time you log in you have a chance to see and do something that no one else has ever done before... I think thats pretty epic.
I know its hard to start a game that has no direction but the ones you decide on. People often login and ask, 'whats the point?' to which everyone replies, 'to have fun', 'no really, whats the point?'. I've had so many people tell me they don't even know what draws them back to play, they don't understand why its so much fun. I think its because most MMOs really are not fun, they just seem like fun because of the endorphins you get when you level up and sparkles appear over your head. But your on a one way track to the level cap, the same as everyone else. When you accomplish something in N8* its because you really did something to earn it, failure is a possibility and has consequences. Its fulfilling.

Have you been surprised by the creativity of the players?

I expected to be surprised, but yeah, the content and how people use the blocks they are given, just blow me away. I'm constantly touring the world in awe of peoples designs, and everyone does things a little different. I've watched players skills at building improve drastically from the time they started playing, its amazing seeing their creativity expand. Right this moment a group of players are building a new starting area, the shape and destiny of the world is really out of my hands, I cant wait to see where they take it.

5. There is a combat element, but it seemed less important to the experience than the building. Will you be adding more to the combat in future?

Yes, combat right now is just the swords, but guns and shields are planned as well. There will be attachments for swords and shields that completely modify their actions, such as a sword attachment that causes it to do damage over time, or gain XP and level up. Bullets will be required for guns to operate, with a huge selection of effects... like rocket chainsaws, or healing bullets. Also, there will be more powerups that affect combat in other ways. Also planned is a team system, where holding a fort will give benefits and encourage more fighting. However, combat is not essential, nothing in the game requires you to fight, its really an optional thing for when someone annoys you.

6. For gamers whose only experience of MMOs is World Of Warcraft, the idea of a one person or a small team creating one seems impossible. Were you prepared for how much of a challenge it would be?

No. In no way was I prepared... however every idea in Neverdaunt is built around player contributions, everything from game play to building the world. Its not much of a game without other players... which I think separates it greatly from MMOs like WoW, which seem more like a single player game with massively tagged on. It probably is an impossible task, going in, thats what almost every one told me, except for Alix, I told her I could do it, she believed me, and here we are.

7. The game has a retro visual style that seems to parody the graphics from the 8-bit platforms of the past. Is that a result of limited resources, or was that your intention from the start?

When I started, I was making Neverdaunt (the non 8bit one) and I had this unreachable, amazing ideal that I wanted the game to be. I'm actually a decent artist first, before being a coder, so it wasn't a resource issue. Two and a half years in and I knew it wasn't going to be done anytime soon. So I went crazy. I needed something to be finished soon or I would have to give it up. I practically had a whole game, it just wasn't Neverdaunt, I needed something I could turn this massive amount of code into... I thought what I needed was a Neverdaunt Lite, a cut down version of the game... but lite sounded dumb, then I thought oh, its like an 8Bit version, and everything just followed logically from there. It was probably the best decision I have ever made for the game.

8. Were there any hidden advantages to creating Neverdaunt on your own? Did the lack of resources force you to make any choices that really paid off?

I honestly have no idea how to write code in a group... So I don't really know. But it does let me do things exactly the way I want, even when other people tell me it wont work or is just impossible. Sometimes, when they are wrong, amazing things happen... Resources? I'm not sure I've gained anything from those kinds of choices. My hope is to continue making games that will be even more awesome once I have team of creative minions.

9. Independent designers often struggle to recoup their investment, and MMOs generally rely on a monthly subscription charge. Do you expect to profit from Neverdaunt?

Egads, I hope so. I invested a lot of time into N8* and I really hope people love the game, have fun, and want to support it. I do hope to profit so that I can move on to the next projects I want to do without restriction. Right now there is a way to buy tickets on the website. In game you can exchange these for Hats, Swords, Block Packs and Monsters... but none of those things give any kind of advantage in gameplay. Its really important to me that no one who pays gets any kind of advantage over someone who cant. But they will look cooler in a Velociraptor head with a top hat swinging a guitar around at people. At some later point there will be an optional subscription that will get you a locked cell and a steady supply of tickets, but again, no real advantage in gameplay, and I hope that sets N8* apart from other free to play MMO's too.


10. World Of Warcraft is so dominant that most commercial MMOs have struggled to make a mark, and many fear that the genre will grow stale. Do you share their concern?

Nah, they are missing the mark because they are trying so hard to hit the same mark as WoW, that they are making clones... they think "oh but its different, we have doctors instead of priests" or something. But its the same mechanics with a new paint job, and often not done as well. I kinda hope N8* becomes such a huge success that it redefines the genre... not that I want Neverdaunt clones, but that people realize there is another way to do things that works.

Where do commercial MMOs need to go from here?

It would be awesome to see major game developers come up with some new ideas and take the risks needed to make it work. Gamers don't know it, but they don't really want more realistic graphics and more grinding. Realistic graphics often find their way into the uncanny valley, you get avatars with realistic light scattering skin shaders that end up clipping through monsters as they attack, and the illusion is broken (I think that's something that WoW has done a decent job with, using the stylized graphics) . Any game developer should start by doing some serious research into what fun is, why mammals play and that kind of thing. If you don't understand how that works, and don't think about it every step of the way, you'll end up with something that sucks, or sucks the life out of people who play it.

11. Neverdaunt is still in beta. Will you be making many major additions to the game before its full release? If so, can you give me some examples of what they might be?

Right now I'm working on Tronics, which is a system of building virtual electronic circuits. This will let people create things like trap doors, elevators, rigged explosives, puzzles, better AI for monsters and a billion other things I cant even imagine. After that its the combat updates with Guns and Shields. A team system where players can combine Cells and compete with other teams. And then on to flying ships which will be player controlled and built. Once all of that's in there will still be new block packs and powerups... and who knows what else, the game may never truly be finished.

This is exactly what i was talking about in the last post...

This is the science of morality.